Nathan Nocchi (NN): It is a pleasure to connect with you, Stafford. We’re keen to learn more about you and your family. Could you tell us a bit about your life? How did you come to faith in Jesus Christ?
Stafford Carson (SC): Patricia and I have been married for 47 years. We have three grown up children, and two grandchildren. I was raised in a Christian home. I can never remember a time when, if you’d asked me, “Do you love Jesus?” that I wouldn’t have said yes. My parents were both Bible-believing Pentecostal Christians. They were very devout and very committed. I was raised in an atmosphere of devotion and commitment to Christ, having the gospel explained to me from my earliest days. I learned just how important it was that we follow Jesus, and that we bring glory to him in our lives.
I remember one evening, as a 16-year-old, having listened to a sermon on “The love of Christ constrains us.” I was at that adolescent stage where I was thinking seriously about what it means to follow Christ and this was a moment of clarity for me when I came to understand the demands of Christian discipleship. I was aware of God’s hand on my life and I knew that I really needed to follow Christ wholeheartedly.
NN: Did that set you on a trajectory to undertake theological studies?
SC: No, not immediately. I went to university, studied biology, and became a biology teacher. While at university, I began to read more theological books. In those days, I began to read people like Martin Lloyd Jones, Francis Schaeffer, and I was part of a Bible study group at university. We were studying the book of Romans, and about the only resource we had was John Murray’s commentary on Romans. I also remember reading J. Gresham Machen’s The Christian View of Man, and that moved me in a very clear, reformed direction at that stage. So, having been raised in a Pentecostal home and in a Pentecostal church, I came to understand something of the richness of reformed theology, particularly as it related to how we are saved by God’s intervention in our lives. It’s God’s work, it’s his grace, which is determinative. We come to trust him and believe in him only because he has first worked in our lives.
I taught biology for 5 years. My main interest, however, was theology. Every lunchtime, every break, I would have a theology book in my briefcase, which I loved to read. At this stage, I thought that if I were ever to study theology, there was only one place that I wanted to go. And that was Westminster Seminary.
Back in 1971 I had a summer job on the New Jersey shore with a group of friends from university. One Saturday night, we made our way from Cape May to Wildwood, and we walked on the boardwalk there. We happened to come upon the Boardwalk Chapel and heard a young man speaking and singing, who, we were told, was a Westminster Seminary student. It was an extraordinary experience for me to meet a real-life person from Westminster! I got a copy of a catalogue from Westminster and I read it avidly. I knew the names (and middle names!) of all the faculty in the 1970s, Edmund Prosper Clowney, Richard Birch Gaffin, Meredith George Kline, Raymond Bryan Dillard, Owen Palmer Robertson, and John McElphatrick Frame, without having met any of them. Eventually it became possible for Patricia and I to come to Glenside in 1978 to begin studies.
NN: While studying at Westminster, did you happen to have a favorite class? One that was formative for your own theological thinking?
SC: I enjoyed everything! I loved church history, and biblical theology especially. I wanted to be able to open the Bible and make sense of the whole flow of redemptive history. It was at Westminster that I felt a call to ministry. I remember reflecting on John Frame’s words that “theology is the application of the Word of God to all of life” and realizing that the study of theology should not occur in a vacuum or be a purely intellectual pursuit. It had implications for our personal lives, and for me, the privilege of studying at Westminster was critical in discerning a call to gospel ministry. In the Lord’s providence, I returned to Ireland to serve the Presbyterian Church in Ireland (PCI).
NN: The PCI’s motto is Ardens sed virens, “burning but flourishing.” Is the PCI “burning but flourishing” today? Have there been any lasting effects of the Ulster Revival in 1859?
SC: Just above that motto is a burning bush, which is the symbol of the PCI. In almost every Presbyterian church in Ireland, you will see a burning bush, usually on the pulpit, in a window, or somewhere in the church. The PCI’s first General Assembly met in 1840 and its very first action was to commission missionaries to India. From the outset, PCI has been energetic in addressing the challenges of global mission.
The Ulster Revival in 1859 brought new life and vitality to the church. In fact, recently I was back at the first congregation where I served as minister in Kells, County Anthem, a congregation that was formed as a direct result of the 1859 revival. They called their first minister in 1874, and he himself was a convert from the revival. The church just celebrated its 150th anniversary! There are many presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland that were begun, and many that were spiritually renewed, as a result of the 1859 Revival. It is estimated that 100,000 people in Ulster were converted to Christ and the whole community was affected in significantly positive ways.
Today, while the bush continues to burn, the church is facing a number of challenges which are affecting many churches in the West. In the United Kingdom, we are seeing a marked and notable decline of denominations. More recently, the clerical sex abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic church has had a devastating impact on Irish society’s view of Christianity. In particular, in the Republic of Ireland there has been a massive movement away from traditional Christian values in the areas of moral theology. In both the UK and the Republic of Ireland we now have very liberal laws in the areas of marriage, gender identity, and abortion, and those who hold to biblical values are often opposed and marginalized. As one Irish historian has put it, the old Christian Ireland is dead.
NN: Were not some of these issues addressed at the PCI General Assembly in 2018?
SC: Yes, indeed. Much of this came to the fore at the General Assembly that year. At that time, I was Principal of Union Theological College in Belfast, and convener of the Doctrine Committee. We had received a request from a presbytery asking for pastoral guidance in a situation where same-sex parents were requesting baptism for their child. We gave a very clear and pastorally-sensitive response to what it meant to make a credible profession of faith, but the media severely criticized the church for “turning away these children.” Essentially, the media was reacting against the orthodox, biblical stance that our church was taking. But in facing that challenge, I am thankful that PCI has remained faithful to Scripture and continues to uphold biblical standards.
The PCI is also experiencing a shortage of ministers. We have many more congregations than we have ministers. So, we are praying earnestly that the Lord will give us suitably-qualified people who are called to the ministry, that they might come and serve within the PCI. Ireland needs Christ, and we are grateful for many faithful congregations which are eager to see Christ’s kingdom extended. But for those congregations to grow and flourish we need gifted and competent ministers.
NN: Would you like to share any personal stories about missions work during your time as a pastor?
SC: I have had the privilege of serving three congregations in PCI, and each of them has faced the challenge of reaching out to their communities. Each congregation has sent out a number of missionaries to various parts of the world, and in that context the evangelical church in Northern Ireland has “punched above its weight” in the task of global missions. So prayerful and practical support for global missions has been an ongoing interest and activity throughout my ministry. I have had the opportunity to teach in Nepal, Myanmar, South Korea, and Hungary and to be with missionaries in Singapore, Cambodia and Ethiopia. Mission strategy has changed over the years, but it still remains a central task for the church today to share the good news of the Gospel with a needy world.
NN: Returning to Westminster, your current role pertains especially to this ministry. Can you tell us about it?
SC: My official title is Senior Director of Global Ministries. I retired as principal of Union Theological College at the end of 2020, and soon after Dr. Garner asked me to join a Global Ministries Advisory Council. After sharing in several Global Ministries prayer meetings, Dr. Garner invited me to serve the seminary as Director of Global Ministries. I began full-time in March 2022, and I can say that it has been a very exhilarating and exciting position to be in.
Westminster, as your readers may know, has a long history of involvement in global ministries, beginning with our early work in China. Interestingly, the Bible College in China that Jonathan Chao’s father, Charles Chao, studied at had been founded by an Irish Presbyterian missionary! This Irish missionary had connections to Princeton and had a friendship with Geerhardus and Johannes Vos. Johannes Vos went to China to teach in the Newchwang Bible College and through his teaching Charles, and then Jonathan, were established in the reformed faith and became instrumental in recruiting and placing Westminster alumni in key positions in China.
In this past year, I have visited Beirut, Cairo, Dominican Republic, and Hong Kong as we have sought to develop and support key initiatives in theological education. Many of those involved in the leadership of local churches in the developing world have little or no theological training. This means that churches are often vulnerable to false teaching and are frequently unclear about the central tenets of the Christian faith. Many local pastors crave solid biblical teaching and training so that they can build strong and vibrant Christian churches and fellowships.
NN: On the topic of theologians, is there a specific theologian that has really shaped your thinking about missions and the intersection between Christianity and world religions?
SC: J.H. Bavinck’s The Science of Missions has been very helpful. His writings had lain dormant for a number of years, but many are picking up on them now. For me, his solid biblical basis for missions is enormously helpful, as well as his work on religious consciousness and elenctics. Having said that, I have benefited greatly from all the publications of the faculty at Westminster, including Harvie Conn, Edmund Clowney, and Richard Gaffin.
NN: As we reflect on the theme of this magazine, ‘O Church Arise,’ Is there anything that you would like to say about this hymn, perhaps in relation to missions?
SC: I think the hymn (by a Northern Irish couple!) highlights the truth that involvement in missions introduces us into a spiritual conflict. In seeking to advance the kingdom of Christ, we are engaged in spiritual warfare and we ought not to be surprised that it is often challenging, bruising, and difficult. But there is the great hope that ultimately Christ’s kingdom will triumph and He will be victorious. The hymns puts it well:
“When faced with trials on every side
We know the outcome is secure
And Christ will have the prize for which he died
An inheritance of nations.”
NN: You were recently appointed to the Barker Chair. Can you tell us about this new position, and the work you would like to do?
SC: The creation of the Frank Barker Chair of Missions and Evangelism honors the late Rev. Dr. Frank Barker for his years of Christian ministry, including his decades-long service on the board of trustees at Westminster Theological Seminary. Westminster seeks to perpetuate Dr. Barker’s ministerial commitments, by training Westminster students in the pattern of his zealous and humble evangelistic ministry.
Through our Global Ministries initiatives, I hope to support Westminster’s commitment to faithful, practical ministry so that the seminary can perpetuate the rigorous application of Reformed theology in missions and evangelism. By offering robust theological education in a number of different languages, we aim to continue the mobilization of mission-hearted, biblically trained, pastor-evangelists who will be “an army bold, reaching out to those in darkness”.